How to Tell a Video Story That Keeps People Engaged

Listen in on this weeks podcast where business partners, Matt Johnston and Jamie Barber discuss the foundations in video story telling. Learn what the story telling arc is and how to draw an audience in using drama, tension, and relatable content.

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Transcript:

Introduction: (00:00)
You’re listening to the video marketing podcast, helping you go a little more viral every day. Here’s your host, Matt Johnston.

Matt Johnston: (00:16)
Okay, welcome to the video marketing podcast. Matt Johnson here with you. As always, uh, very excited about today’s show because today we are going to talk about how to tell stories. We often talk about all of these things. I always talk about my hero system and we talk about all of these things that you need to have in your video to make it shareable, to make your YouTube ads convert, all of these things. But we don’t always talk about the story, you know, we kind of are like, and then you tell the story. So it’s like, how do you actually tell the story when you’re inside of it? Um, one of my favorite people in the work world who’s actually one of my, like basically part of my extended family is Jamie Barton who uh, Jamie Bartner. What the hell is your name? Jamie Barber who runs guide social with me.

Matt Johnston: (01:01)
Um, Jamie’s a storytelling expert. And, uh, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve, we’ve been talking about this stuff for a while as we’ve been working together, right? Jamie, just telling people how to tell stories through content and, um, I think that you would probably agree that like, knowing the fundamentals is what it’s all about. And so what I thought we would talk about today, we would jump on with you here is to just talk a little bit about what the storytelling arc is like, what a storytelling arc is and how to actually bring your, a, your audience into these stories and tell it in a way that creates tension. Drama takes people through because all of these things are reasons for these videos to ultimately do what you want them to do, whether it’s convert or build value and trust, whatever it is. Having a, this storytelling arc in place and understanding how to do it is going to, is going to help people, uh, help people draw, be drawn into your content more, which is ultimately what we want, right? Because this is how these people become, you know, fans, followers, whatever it is. So, uh, Jamie, thanks for taking the time today.

Jamie Barber: (02:13)
Absolutely. Happy to be here.

Matt Johnston: (02:17)
Yeah. So Jamie, you have this arc and I remember you showed it to me once and I was like, Oh, that’s interesting. I’ve never seen that before. Uh, and um, I, I wonder if you would just walk us through it, um, because I would love, I would love to just get a sense for, and you know, Jamie, you, you, you’ve had years of experience, right? You’ve, you’ve, uh, you’ve edited novels, you’ve written novels, right? Um, and, and all of this. And so you’ve found ways and you’re also an SEO Wiz. So you know, you’ve written blogs using this kind of format and you’ve also told long novels using similar format. So I think it’s really interesting to just break down what this arc is all about. So, so how does it start? What’s the starting point?

Jamie Barber: (02:58)
I like call this store the starting point, the before, right? So this is the moment before any part of the story happens. So this is kind of like your, um, it’s a little bit of a hook. It’s a little bit of a, of a preview into sort of a small conflict that may happen. Um, you want to snag people right away, right? So if you’re thinking in terms of a TV show or a book, probably the first page of that book or the first few seconds of the TV show, it’s going to show you something that is going to change something that is going to happen that is going to make a big difference or whatever story you have. So that’s kind of like, well, if you actually thinking of your hero system, right? That’s, that’s that first three to five seconds, that’s not wow moment. So you have to have that small, I think the goal is small conflict.

Jamie Barber: (03:53)
A small portion of it’s a preview of there will be a change the before. But as you do that, you also have to show the before of what is going on, what is going, what has happened in a person’s life. If you’re doing a story arc based on a person. So if it’s like for a coach or, um, some, you know, it’s a personal story arc, you want to show what that person was like before they had this thing happen. What were they struggling with, right? What were their pain points? What are some of the things that mattered to them? Um, what was that person like? Because as you’re creating this story arc, you need to show a change. So if you don’t show that, so now do, so do you need to, uh, so, so, so do you need to have, before you all do all for sure you do all of this, do you need to sort of establish who the hero is of the story in order to do this?

Jamie Barber: (04:50)
Yes, absolutely. Knowing, knowing your main characters is, is huge in content, in content. And I say this even for, um, writing blogs and things like that where people don’t think of having a character or don’t think of having any sort of hook at the beginning or, you know, they just go into something, they regurgitate information and I’m big on content. Starting out with something that makes your readers go, okay, I’m relating to something, I’m, you’re building something for them, you’re making them see, or you’re, you’re, you’re pulling them into your world. And so if that’s in writing versus video, right, you would be describing something in detailed to suck your readers in, in a video. You know, you obviously need footage or some sort of hook, and it can be as something even later on before you go into the before section, but you want to show what happened, who that hero is and yeah. And what happened to them before I change.

Matt Johnston: (05:51)
And obviously this is important too, to show this because if you just go to the, I mean, if you just go to what the, where they’re going to be, it’s all about the emotional impact of the moment when the transformation happens. Right?

Jamie Barber: (06:05)
Right. Exactly. And, uh, and, and so many times you see everybody show kind of their afters of, right? You scroll Facebook and you see people post you post pictures by their Lamborghini’s, or this is the after, this is after. But nobody cares about the after. If they don’t care about the struggle, we all identify more with struggle than we identify with success. Um, because to, to us, you know, as human beings, a lot of times success seems unattainable. Something that we can’t reach and maybe we want that, but we can’t identify with it. And so as we’re trying to do empathy in our storytelling, we have to show that struggle.

Matt Johnston: (06:46)
That’s awesome. I love that. Makes a lot of sense. The, the empathy with that is going to be in the before, not in the after. Yeah. So I mean w because I mean you can empathize and feel emotion about the dream, right? Like about imagining yourself somewhere. Right. There is, there is a version of empathy going there, but the much stronger empathy is going to be that, that emotional identification of, of, of, of the before. So yeah, that’s, that’s, that’s super powerful. Okay. What’s next?

Jamie Barber: (07:19)
So that then you kind of have your, uh, your conflict, your, your build up and I like to call this your small conflicts because you, you tend to, if you’re having a full story, you’re probably going to have multiple comp complex. In fact, you know, you’re gonna have a, a kind of a climax sort of moment of conflict. But um, in, in a story is if you’re, if you’re doing it for like a television show or a book, right? You’re going to have that small conflict first. Um, and again that that could more be your hook or you know, something else to pull you in. So you’ve got that moment of complex and then you’re building up to something. Um, and the build up is really kind of important. Um,

Jamie Barber: (08:03)
I feel like ally, I feel like a lot of things that you’re, it’s not just getting from point a to B, it’s again, that struggle of what it’s taking to get from point a to B. So how are you responding to the conflict? What steps are you taking to make that conflict better? What are more challenges that you are now facing? Because you got to that point. And I think this, this arc is actually really easy if you’re, if you’re taking like a coach for example, um, somebody who’s maybe selling, uh, you know, a product a or, or service. And it’s telling their own story because a lot of times it’s, it’s that story of I w you know, I was super excited. I opened my own business, I did this, and then I hit all of these roadblocks. And again, it’s the kind of those roadblocks that we identify with, but on an level, not on an analytical level. So, um, so storytelling is much more about the emotional part of it than it is the series of I did this and then I did this and I did this cause he, nobody cares what people care about is the emotion behind it.

Matt Johnston: (09:11)
Okay. So let’s go back to this idea of, of the conflict. Um, cause I’m wondering if there is a space in popular culture where we can just take that so that we can understand it a little bit better. Because I think some people think about the conflict being, I don’t know, maybe pushed down the line in the story a little bit more. You know, almost as if, I think most people think of a storytelling arc maybe like it’s sort of more of uh, an upside down triangle or, or regular triangle and upside down V like you go up, you have the conflicts, the, the, the conflict and then you go down. But it’s, you know, it’s much more complicated than that. So you have your before and then you have your conflict. So, so is this, this is sort of like a mini conflict before the big conflict, right? That sets the stage, you know, is this

Jamie Barber: (09:59)
that actually, so, so these are the struggles that happened because you’re on this journey. Whatever journey you’re on, you will ultimately face your major midpoint conflict that will cause that full kind of story arc to happen. But there is, if you don’t have a conflict at the beginning, then people don’t stay interested, right? Like we need tension. And when you think about movies or writing or anything like that, you think of intention being that most important part of every scene of every, um, everything that’s going on, literally very little can be happening around you. And if, if you’re just talking, like if I’m just having a regular conversation with you, that’s not very interesting. It’s not interesting unless there’s some emotion of color or tiny bit of conflict behind that, you know, like, are you resenting me for some reason? Are you, um, you know, is there some sort of underlying secret and there somewhere, you know, like you have to think about like what intrigues people. And it’s this, it’s this internal conflict. And again, it doesn’t have to be external. It can be internal.

Matt Johnston: (11:07)
So let’s take star Wars, I assume, you know, star Wars, right?

Jamie Barber: (11:11)
Yes.

Matt Johnston: (11:13)
We would have to edit that out, but now we won’t. So, uh, so let’s, let’s just start with, let’s just do a new hope, right? And so we have, so we have Luke Luke’s before is that he stuck on tattooing and he’s, uh, he’s just a little pissed off kid basically, you know, and he’s just sort of like, ah, I gotta get outta here. I’m so unhappy. Like, Oh, ah, these robots are proud and you know, all this stuff. He’s just frustrated. And then I would assume that the inciting conflict is his parents or his, is his uncle and aunt getting murdered? Basically,

Jamie Barber: (11:52)
yes. That’s the inciting

Matt Johnston: (11:54)
con like did, I guess that’s kind of the best way to put it is it’s the inciting sort of instance, exciting conflict. Nice. Okay, great. Okay. So we have this

Matt Johnston: (12:02)
for things to happen. This is what spurs the change.

Matt Johnston: (12:07)
Okay, great. So we have our, so we have our, before we have our inciting conflict, which is kind of like a, it’s like the catalyst, right? Like it’s the thing that basically pushes the story forward. Um, so then one,

Jamie Barber: (12:20)
no, don’t have a story. He does leave. He doesn’t leave. I can’t even say the name of that planet, but I’ve heard it so many times, I still get [inaudible] but never leave there. Right. Like he would say there, if that inciting incident hadn’t happened, we wouldn’t have a story. He never would’ve gone on to do all the things that he did. So.

Matt Johnston: (12:46)
Okay. So what’s after the, the inciting conflict.

Jamie Barber: (12:50)
Okay, well that, that, that, that’s where you start to get what you’re more characterization as the struggles sort of start to happen as, um, now this star Wars is so action packed that it’s, I mean, it’s easy to pull some of these, but I would say probably in a lot of stories, these are more internal building points, but I mean star Wars is everything from, you know, trying to find Ben, you know, Obi wan Kenobi, all that with the,

Matt Johnston: (13:20)
so it’s so, so, so just to be clear about what the next stage is in the arc here, it’s, it’s building like moment, like what is like, what do we call this?

Jamie Barber: (13:29)
Um, it’s the struggle. It’s, it’s building. Building the struggle. Yeah.

Matt Johnston: (13:35)
Okay. And do, do we have a, do we know where we’re going yet? Sort of, you know, I mean, so, so, so you have this initial conflict as inciting conflict moment and then you have this struggle, but struggle implies that there’s a goal you’re struggling towards sort of. So when, how is that introduced or is that sort of inherent in the inciting conflict or how do those things work together? Like how do we know what we’re building towards?

Jamie Barber: (14:04)
Well, I feel like in some cases the character doesn’t know what they’re building towards and in some cases they do. So I think it could go either way. Um, there are certain instances where maybe their goal isn’t quite known. Granted, we like it more. We relate more to characters when they are, um, when they are moving the story forward. And we talk about this actually a lot in kind of the writing community about how if things always happen to your character and your character is not the pusher and the mover or the person making the decisions, we get a little bit bored with that person because we want them to take action. We want them to be a doer and have motivation themselves. So, um, that’s not to say you can’t, but people kind of can get fed up.

Matt Johnston: (14:48)
I just realized why I hate the Twilight books.

Jamie Barber: (14:53)
[inaudible] things are always happening too. Yeah. Uh huh.

Matt Johnston: (14:56)
You know what the thing is? I actually don’t hate them. I read them all. The last one is awful and sorry if I’m offending anybody in the audience, but, uh, that was my mate and because I did enjoy pieces of them in the first three. The last one is just like the worst, but, um, that was my main issue with Bella. I would always get so frustrated with her because there’s a lack of agency there. Right? Like things keep happening to her. Like she’s always sort of the victim in that situation. Is that, is that a good example? Because I feel like it is, I’m kind of like, I’m trying to think of what, what she took agency in and I’m kinda like, Hmm. Like that, that whole second book, I remember being very bored with her. I was just like, ah, he’s just, she’s very like unhappy with the way, so emo all the time, you know, and I’m not actually taking action on it. Right,

Jamie Barber: (15:48)
right. People like it, people liked it. I feel like less people would admit to liking it. Um, now, which I’ll be one of those people that said that. We’ll say that back then. I actually did like it, but

Matt Johnston: (16:00)
I enjoyed the first three. I totally enjoyed the free well I enjoyed book one and book three. Book two was a little tedious book for, I just thought it was an, I just thought it was an awful,

Jamie Barber: (16:10)
I think we all later on realize like all these sort of the, the values and things were all kind of really messed up.

Matt Johnston: (16:18)
Yeah, of course. Of course. Of course. But it is a good example of this agency of the hero. Yeah.

Jamie Barber: (16:24)
W is, it’s, it’s a great example of that like, um, your, your, your main character should have agency. And actually when I was deconstructing to bring it back to sort of videos and ads, um, when I was directing, um, kind of like the Y the Gillette men’s ad was really unsuccessful when it was kind of, uh, I’m not sure how many of you will see that ad, but it was kind of, they tried to follow that, like the me too movement with it and they just kind of went in the wrong direction with it. Um, because the character that you’re behind, you’re not behind a character that is making good choices. You’re just seeing things happen that are bad choices. And then at the end you’re supposed to identify with this, um, moment of inspiration of, yes, you know, I’m supporting women and me too, or whatever. But the problem is, is there was no agency. We weren’t following a character who was doing the right things or seeing the right things. Um, and, and following any sort of character arc to get to that point. We were just seeing some people doing bad things and some people doing some good things and it just, it doesn’t, it didn’t create a story that we can identify with. And I think that happens.

Matt Johnston: (17:39)
Right. So there was like a, there was an empathy. It had an empathy problem.

Jamie Barber: (17:43)
Right, exactly. So what happened was, you know, there were all kinds of men that were like men like that, dah, dah, dah, dah. And they got up in arms because there was no, there was no agency or empathy produced in that sort of with, because there was no arch.

Matt Johnston: (17:59)
That’s fascinating. Fascinating. I love how you’re bringing it back to what we’re doing here too, because it’s very easy as we’re talking about star Wars and stuff, I think it’s good to talk about that stuff because it’s very, it’s so much easier to visualize this. This cotton was sort of sometimes complex story arc, but it is important to think about how we can use this in our stuff. Right? Okay. So we have before we have the inciting conflict, then we are, uh, we, we have the struggle, the struggle. I’m build. Um, we’ve got that. Okay, so then what,

Jamie Barber: (18:30)
so now you’re going to get to your main conflict. So now you’re going to get to what you need to know to get to the rest of like that.

Matt Johnston: (18:36)
Is this, is this the conflict or, sorry, is this the climax or is this a different,

Jamie Barber: (18:42)
no, the, the, the climax really is that breaking point. Yeah. The client X is actually right before the finish. That’s, it’s kind of like, if you think of this whole part you’re building, building, building, you don’t quite, that’s why I think it’s more of an arc than just going up. Right? Because it starts to go down because normally when we have a conflict or, and really maybe conflict isn’t the best word here as much as more as you have your mission at this point, right? Like you have your, your goal, you know what you’re doing, you know where you’re setting out to do. And then it kind of goes into sort of this falling action where you’re doing these things and you’re getting somewhere. We want, we want our characters to get somewhere cause we, they can’t just be stunted and blocked every second of the way.

Jamie Barber: (19:29)
Right? They have to, they have to progress. So this is sort of the sort of falling action in, in the point of they know what they want. They, um, they have this big goal and this big overall conflict that is happening. Um, and now they are getting somewhere. Um, so like to bring it to back to, I don’t know, let’s say like the hunger games, right? So now Katniss is in the hunger games. That’s her big conflict. So, so her, her inciting incident was that she, right. She had to volunteer for the hunger games to um, save her sister prim. And then the, this part, she’s actually now she has facing her big complex. She is now in the hunger games. And as she’s doing going along, she’s, she’s conquering things, right? She’s, she’s doing what she needs to do to get to that point. Um, so that’s, so is

Matt Johnston: (20:31)
this at the top of the arc? So it, I mean, it’s an arc, right? So it’s like, it’s like, Whoa. It’s like, right. And so, and so we have before struggled before a complex struggle build. And then this, this moment that we’re talking about is at the top and then it starts falling. But, but what does this fall like? Like, so, so, so we’re arking now and, but, but we’re like, we’re like arking downwards. Why are we working downwards? Like what is the down mean? Is it just,

Jamie Barber: (21:00)
it’s a, things were being solved or being completed? Like I like, I like the struggle is building up to something and now we’re building down because we’re solving something. But then that’s when we get thrown off because we hit our, our major struggle. Like that point that we don’t think we’re going to be able to get beyond like any good book or any good movie, have this point that, that now there’s pushback. Now there are something that happens that stops that momentum. So they’re, you know, they’re doing what they need to do. And all of a sudden, uh, you know, that that moment,

Matt Johnston: (21:38)
so this is after the central conflict hits and then you’re on your way down the arc and then you hit a w w what’s this moment,

Jamie Barber: (21:48)
um, pushback? It’s a moment of pushback when, when something happens that yes, some, some obstacle that is that is making the end goal feel impossible.

Matt Johnston: (22:02)
Interesting. Interesting. Okay. So, uh,

Jamie Barber: (22:07)
the short story arc, that’s gonna that’s probably gonna hit where your climax is, right? Like if it’s a longer story RQ, you’re, you might have multiple obstacles, you might have multiple points where they overcome, um, you know, each sort of battle. And then

Matt Johnston: (22:22)
like when this is like when Obi wan Kenobi dies in a spoiler alert from 40 years ago, this is like when Obi wan Kenobi dies. Right. And I suppose is one of the moment

Jamie Barber: (22:35)
[inaudible] all hope might be gone. Yeah. It could be

Matt Johnston: (22:40)
because the actual climax is when they’re flying through the thing trying to destroy the death star.

Jamie Barber: (22:47)
Exactly. So that’s your, that’s your actual climax. Your moment of pushback. Yeah. Would definitely be, I think OB OB one dying because when he dies, it’s that moment of, Oh, I can’t do this. How am I going to do this? I can’t do this anymore. And we all sort of reached that point in our life I think, or in, in any stories where we think, I can’t do this anymore. You know, that I’ve had enough. I’ve, I’ve done enough. I’ve battled my way through, look at all the progress I made and now I can’t go on any further. And, um, so that’s a really important part of the story is that, is that back because if it’s too easy, right? If you just had that initial moment and then all of a sudden you were able to overcome everything, um, it’s just, it’s obviously not as interesting.

Jamie Barber: (23:32)
We want that, that pushback to give us some sense of fulfillment, of overcoming, of action. Um, and then like I said, then, then often there’ll be a climax after that where the biggest thing happens, right? That’s your most exciting moment. Your exciting obstacle of overcoming, um, is the climax. And then of course it falls to your ending, but what people forget is after you tie up all your loose ends and you’re ending as there’s an actor. And I remember sitting at the screening of flight of the Phoenix, I don’t know if you’ve seen that movie or not. It’s, it never was really huge. It was a Harrison. Um, but I was, I was at the screening for, and I, you know, when you’re screening a movie you have to write down your opinions of, of the movie and what you think needs to be fixed and things like that before they take it to an audience.

Jamie Barber: (24:33)
So I remember at the end of that movie, I w I, there was nothing, there was just an ending. And so I wrote on my sheet and it must’ve been a lot of people wrote this on their sheet too because they did end up fixing this. Um, was that there, I just got to know all these characters and care about all these characters and I don’t know what happened to them afterwards. Like, it’s this flight of the Phoenix is about basically a plane that goes down in the middle of the desert and you’re getting to know all these people and you want them to be saved and you want them to whatever. And they’re, they’re there for many, many days. And I’m like, if you can think about the way Castaway is, but it’s with a lot of people and they finally take off in this plane and they fly away and it just felt so unfulfilled cause it was like, okay great.

Jamie Barber: (25:17)
They, they completed their goal but what happened to that? And like I cared about these people, like what happened to them after. So they ended up um, splicing in at the end of the movies once I saw it, um, on DVD was, um, they showed what happened to each person afterwards cause I think it’s actually was based on a true story as well. Um, and that was really important. Like what happened after, what the great that we ended all this conflict. But where are you after that point? Now with star Wars, you can’t do that because it keeps going on. Two more, two more story. But um, but in most stories you, you want to see, you know, the after so hunger games, right? You’re not gonna see that until the end of the last book where you know, Katniss and Peeta are, you know, together and living their afterlife. You want to see what happens after. So in your ads, you, right. We think of our before as in our afters, um, our after shots. But um,

Matt Johnston: (26:25)
yeah, it’s interesting. He kind of makes me think that I should watch panic room again. It’s, I’ve been to a lot of screeners as a journalist in my time, but I’ve only been to one screener as a like to like give them tips about the movie. And it was panic room if you know that Jodie foster, where when I was living in LA in two, two and I hated it. I have, should probably watch it again. I guess I was just like, Oh yeah, I get it. They’re trapped in a room. I don’t know. I just remember not liking it. It was so many years ago. Um, but anyway, this is good. Okay, so let’s, so, so, so we have the climax, but so, so then there’s basically two steps after the climax in this arc. So there’s the, there’s the resolution and then the, it’s like resolution and epilogue basically. Or so what’s the, so what do we need in our resolution? Like how do you tie things together? You say tie up loose, but like what does that mean?

Jamie Barber: (27:21)
Well, that means that, that you’re getting to a point of acceptance. Um, so either you’ve completed your, your battle ride, your internal battle, your external battle, whatever that entire arc that you’ve been working on, that entire big complex that you’ve been working on, that you overcame your push back and you overcame all that, all of that is now solved. You have solved it in some way. Um, or again, if it’s an internal struggle, you’ve, if you’re struggling, like with weight loss, right? Like, you know, you had your pushback, you crashed and burned on your diet. It’s throw it out the window and now you’ve, and now you’re back on track and you, and you’re solid and you’re committed and things are going well and you’re seeing the results. Right. So then what happens at it’s the, um, this is the, it’s kind of the point we care about cause we care about how people, um, well it’s about imagining, right? The after is about imagining what is to come both for ourselves and for others. Um, if we bring it back to advertising, you know, back to, to content in that is, it’s that moment that we think, um, we want people to think, Oh, I want to be like them. I want to do that. I want to have that. And if you don’t have the after than you’ve, you’ve cut it too short.

Matt Johnston: (28:46)
Fascinating stuff. And I do think it’s all applicable. I mean it’s obviously, uh, it’s, it’s very applicable when you’re doing a typical story and it’s easy to see these pieces, but it’s also an applicable, even when you’re making short, 62nd content, I mean, it’s still needs to have this buildup. Right? And I’ll, a lot of what I talk about with the hero system is how you optimize this. Right? But you know, so, so that it’s optimized for, um, for these platforms to go viral. But the story is still so much a piece of it. And, uh, that’s, that’s fascinating. That’s really fascinating. You, you can see this happening often when you see a lot of these ads that have long form copy or when you see an ad that’s a, again, like a human storytelling point, you know, like, I was like this, uh, but then I found out like this and I’ve, I’ve, I found out about this, this happened to me and I thought everything was going to fall apart.

Matt Johnston: (29:46)
I was moving towards, towards a brick and I, I decided I needed to change things in my life. And then, uh, all of a sudden something happened, you know, like I found out that I had to some sort of disease or something like that. And then you have this moment where you have to like have this internal climax basically where you come to this realization moment. So, I mean, it’s so important the way you’re crafting things. And I, I think what’s so awesome about this is that we all often in the world of marketing, get so caught up in tactics that we forget like the master narrative stuff, that, that is the piece of all of it. You know, that psychology. So that’s great stuff.

Jamie Barber: (30:28)
Right? And like if we were to bring it back to like a storytelling advert, maybe it’s not about a person but about people. So like, I know you like to talk about of ad, right? So if we start with that and we can just take that real quick through the arc so you can kind of see how that kind of applies. Right? Like that first before, right? Those women are in the waiting room waiting to be sketched. They don’t know why they’re there. Um, so there’s this, there’s almost this inciting incident of, uh, of tension, right? There’s tension in the room because they don’t know, why are we sitting in this room? We have no idea what’s going on. Right? Um, and then it goes into, um, the artist’s sketch and they’re sitting there describing themselves to the artists. They don’t really know what’s going on.

Jamie Barber: (31:15)
Right. But they’re, but they’re doing this thing. Um, and then they find out at the midway point that these other, um, well actually, no, I guess that would be yet, cause they don’t find out yet. Um, the mid point is when I guess the other people come in and are describing these women. Right. And then, and then you’re kind of climax is when the people come in to discover what the pictures looked like versus each other and then kind of your after is that resolution of, Oh my goodness, I, that’s how I saw myself. Oh, I didn’t know that. And then, and then of course the, the after is just kind of like the, the happiness. They, you know, right. They show like happy shots. They sh they show ’em what people learned from it, um, throughout the ad. So it still follows that arc, um, in a different way, even without it just being one person or one journey. Um,

Matt Johnston: (32:22)
yeah, that’s, that’s fascinating. That’s fascinating. I love that. Uh, Jamie, thank you so much for this. I mean, I, I’ve, I, uh, we gotta write this down and put it into another, I mean, I know you’ve made an infographic for this before. I think we should make infographic and maybe make a video on it, um, for everybody. Cause this is, this is a, this is just something that everybody knows, but people don’t often think about. This is, this has been, this has been great. Um, thank you so much for, for coming on and talking story with me. Hey, no problem. Thanks everybody for being here, uh, for the, for the old podcast. Please, please do leave us in iTunes review if you do get value from this show. Uh, it does mean a lot to us and a lot to, uh, to, to other people who have the chance to see this thing or see or hear it. I suppose you hear podcasts. Um, so, uh, I will talk to everybody next week and have a fabulous week.

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