How to Write YouTube Ad Copy That Converts Into Leads and Sales

So many people that want to get into YouTube advertising often hit a wall when they start thinking about their video creative. But the truth is, too many people overcomplicate it, and the basic axioms of good ad copy are what you really need to get people clicking on your ad and converting down your funnel. So how do you write YouTube ad copy that converts?

In this episode we talk to Anika Watkins of Moxie Media Management. Anika is the founder of Moxie, which is a full service copywriting agency and an expert copywriting pro herself.

Anika talked to us about the four fundamentals of direct response copywriting, how to establish your authority in your video ads, and the psychological principles which get people to click on them, among many other things.

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Matt Johnston: 00:18 Thanks everybody. So happy to have you here. I’m very, very excited about the show today because we’re talking about copywriting. Uh, and this is something which often is a, it’s a mystery to marketers sometimes, oddly a mystery to mark

Matt Johnston: 00:33 is because we have to do so much of it. However, I feel like very few of us actually know how to do it, but we try anyway. And so hopefully this podcast will help shed some light on it. I am here with, uh, Anika Watkins……. Anika how did you get your start in copywriting?

Anika Watkins: 01:50 So I’ve always been a writer. I’m one of those freaks who like started writing when I was three and it sounds crazy, but it’s true. And I’m, I just loved writing and telling stories. I had something published at the children’s museum when I was like nine years old and I didn’t realize I was a good writer. I just loved writing. Um, and then, you know, went through college, got my degree in PR and journalism, um, and wanted to be writer. So I did a lot of freelance writing for magazines and quickly found out it wasn’t very profitable. It’s like 15 cents a word. So I thought, okay, you know, maybe I’ll go into marketing so I’ll make more money in marketing. Um, and of course in marketing it’s all about copy. You really can’t sell anything if you don’t have compelling, concise copy that is going to sell your product.

Anika Watkins: 02:37 And that’s really the goal of copywriting. Um, so many people think, you know, copywriting should be funny and witty and clever and sometimes that works. But ultimately the goal of professional copywriting, especially direct response, is to get people to buy a product or service, right? Like it’s not to be the most clever ad or a Superbowl commercial that makes you laugh. It’s really about showing something to somebody and making them feel like they need it. They want it, and they got to have it. So, um, when I had my agency, I ended up just naturally kind of writing copy for other agencies, um, and it just really grew from there. And I thought, wow, there’s a huge demand for this. People need excellent copy. Um, so it’s something I’m very passionate about. I love direct response copywriting. Um, it makes a huge difference in your campaigns. So I could geek out on copy literally all day long. So.

Matt Johnston: 03:30 Well that’s good. How about we just do 40 minutes.

Anika Watkins: 03:33 Okay, cool. You guys, if I have to narrow it down, that’s fine.

Matt Johnston: 03:38 Yeah, no, I, yeah, go, go. Sorry, go ahead.

Anika Watkins: 03:40 Yeah, so I mean like if we’re talking about direct response, you know, I think there’s a couple things that people really need to focus on to do it right. And I can kind of walk you through those if that would be helpful.

Matt Johnston: 03:51 Sure. Yeah, that be great.

Anika Watkins: 03:53 Okay. So the first thing that is for sure, the most important thing when it comes to copywriting is your headline. So whether it’s, you know, youtube, Facebook, Linkedin, wherever you’re advertising, your headline is your goal of mine. That’s what I always tell people because you only have five seconds to grab someone’s attention, which is insane. We live in such a fast paced world and you need to make that headline super effective and compelling and people are actually five times more likely to read the headline than the body. So thoughtfully, it’s pretty important, right? Like you have to nail your headline. Um, and I think you would agree with that too, right?

Matt Johnston: 04:30 Oh, 100%. 100%. I came from, um, I don’t know if you know this about me, probably listeners don’t, but I came from a big publishing background. I went to school for journalism too. I got my masters and I was at, um, I was a top editor at business insider and I was at New York magazine and now this, and when I was in business insider, I was sort of like one of the resident like headline guru guys. Like one of my job is actually to go through the entire site and optimize their headlines constantly. And you definitely, well, it’s, well, yeah, I mean obviously it’s, it’s the difference between, you know, 5,000 clicks and a million clicks is the headline. And of course the image as well, very often. Uh, but yeah, there’s a, there’s a huge arc to it. Um, are there any specific components that you can, or, or a specific guidepost that you have that people could easily plug in for their headlines?

Anika Watkins: 05:26 Yeah, so whenever I’m looking at writing a headline for copy, there’s four things I look at. The first one’s going to be urgency. So you want to make sure your headline creates some sort of sense of urgency to make them click. So it could be a limited time offer, a deadline incentives or an upsell, um, or even like fear of missing out. Like it’s just a super cool product or event. Um, so urgency is key. I always try to include that in every headline. Um, specificity. So does it speak to a specific audience with a very specific need? Um, I meet clients all the time and I think you can relate to this too, where they think their product is for everyone. I’ll say, who is your target audience? And they say, oh, everyone, everyone needs our product. And that is just not true. You know?

Anika Watkins: 06:11 So you need to really know who is your specific audience and then know the language, um, that they resonate with. And know their specific pain points. So making sure your, your headline is very specific. Um, relevance. Is it actually relevant to the person reading it, you know, switch should really appeal to their self interest. So how will this product help them? Why do they need it, why will they benefit? Um, and then originality, you know, so if it should always see something new and interesting, um, even if it’s not a new product, try to find a fresh way of presenting the product. So those are kind of the four pieces of framework that I use when I am putting together a headline. That’s a lot of stuff to put in a headline. Yeah. I mean it’s hard. You won’t always hit all of them, but you know, when you, when you’re thinking about writing it, you can even split test this too. And I could see, okay, I’m going to have one headline that’s really going to push urgency or one that’s really going to hit on, um, specificity. But really every headline should be specific, right? Like it should be addressed to a specific audience. Be Relevant to that audience and then try to have some urgency so you can get it all in there. It sounds like a lot, but I think if you map it out, it’s definitely doable.

Matt Johnston: 07:24 So as far as originality, that’s more like a playing with just people feeling like they’re encountering something new and bold and fresh rather than something that they’ve seen before. Is that the idea behind that?

Anika Watkins: 07:38 Yeah, exactly. You know, so it could be a very generic product. I don’t know, maybe a coffee mug or something like that. Coffee monks are not new, but what makes your coffee mug new and exciting and then you can tap into, you know, features and benefits to figure out, okay, how do you differentiate your product from the others that are out there? So just finding, finding a new way to present it to the world. I read something recently about, um, m and ms, you know, back in the day they had that campaign. What was it? It was like melt in your mouth, not in your hands. So that was kind of a new and fresh way to talk about a generic chocolate candy. Um, and so I like examples like that, just thinking of a new and fresh way to present your product to people.

Matt Johnston: 08:25 I think that’s super key. That’s super, super key. And I think, uh, also I love, uh, pointing to the audience thing, right? Everybody, I mean, how often have you talked to someone who owns a business and you say, well, who’s your audience? And they’ll say, well, 18 to 55. And I’m like, really?

Anika Watkins: 08:42 haha

Matt Johnston: 08:45 What about, what about avoiding, uh, within these, is that important to you or not at all?

Anika Watkins: 08:59 Um, yes and no. Sometimes cliches work really well and copied depending on the type of client, you know, if you’re using it cliche to be funny and it’s something your audience would resonate with. I don’t mind using cliches. I think some writers are like, they feel like they have to completely avoid them at all costs. And I don’t always believe that. I think you need to do what works, you know. So if your audience, um,

Speaker 5: 09:22 there’s going to be

Anika Watkins: 09:24 somebody who’s going to accept a cliche and think it’s funny and humorous and it’s going to match their voice and what they’re looking for. I don’t mind using cliches at all. Um, the biggest thing I would say in copy too is make it as you centric as possible, as in you the reader, not you the business. So many times I will see ads or website copying. It’s all about the business. Like, you know, we’ve done as a business x, Y and Z to improve this product. Um, but instead it should be focusing on you. Like, here’s the solution you’ve been looking for. Here’s how you benefit from this product. So I think when you’re looking at copy, um, really try to make it as much as possible about the user and how it’s gonna benefit them. Cause nobody really cares. I mean, they don’t really care about your business in the sense that they don’t need to know every detail and what you’ve done and your experience. They really want to know how does this help them? At the end of the day, how are they going to benefit from this product or service?

Matt Johnston: 10:22 Yeah, that’s, that’s really interesting. Okay, so that’s the headline. What’s next?

Anika Watkins: 10:27 Okay. So one thing I thought we could talk about is pain points because pain points are really pivotal, um, to any successful copy when you’re trying to write direct response. So W, I mean, what are your thoughts on pain points? Is this something you guys are always trying to incorporate into your ads?

Matt Johnston: 10:44 Yeah, of course. Um, of course. Uh, so a lot of what we do with, with our youtube advertising and, and this is what we, uh, uh, a lot of what I’d love to focus on today is how folks can write better copy for their youtube ads, which are, which are often someone’s speaking to a camera. Um, we’re usually trying to call out the Avatar and the problem really right off the bat, because you know, you don’t pay on Youtube for anybody who clicks that skip ad button before 30 seconds. So you want all the bad people out and the good people to stay in. So you really want to qualify those people and their problems right off the bat. And there’s actually a financial, uh, thing tied to it in youtube because you actually don’t pay for those folks. So we’re, we’re, we’re calling out the pain points right at the beginning. We have to be very sharp with it, right? You have to be very, it has to be, it has to be very short, but at the same time, effective and, and sort of empathetic. So I’d love to hear your thoughts on that

Anika Watkins: 11:46 for sure. And that kind of ties back into what I was saying about how headlines, it has to be very specific and relevant to that audience. You need to address the Avatar right away. Um, but as far as pain points, so they’re, you know, crucial, like I said, to having great copy. And there’s a few ways you can go about uncovering what those pain points are. Some of them will be really obvious depending on the product or service. But the more specific you can be with your pain points, I think the better because it’s going to resonate with your audience. Um, so a few of the ways that we go about finding, you know, what are those pain points? I can kind of walk you through that. So the first one that we always go to first is go to the source, you know, so ask the customer, kind of conduct your own qualitative research. So they’re going to give you the best insight obviously. So these should be people, you know, family or friends who actually use that product or service or would use it. Um, and even if you can just conduct a small survey yourself of like five to 10 people and say what, you know, what bothers you about this product? Or what would you do differently? What would you improve? That can be a really effective way. Um, just to get some general feedback from people who actually use the product.

Matt Johnston: 13:00 That’s great. And I think a lot of us don’t actually take the time to do that. It’s like I always think about doing it. And then, you know, we just, we don’t quite always get there, but it’s super, super useful. Are there ways that you’d like very specific tactical things that you would recommend? Because every business is different. So let’s say that you’re working with a client, a company that you know, they’ve, I don’t know, they, they’ve got some product that’s for a very niche community that you know nothing about. What would you do?

Anika Watkins: 13:28 Okay. So I mean, you could start with the qualitative. If you don’t know anyone in that specific niche. One thing, two things. Actually, this is what you can do to figure out what the pain points are. One thing you can do is go on Amazon. So let’s say, you know, we in our agency have worked with, for example, a lot of cosmetic surgeons. Um, so you could go into Amazon, into the book section and Look Up Marketing for cosmetic surgeons and you’re going to find books that have been written to that audience, um, that are literally going to tell you the pain points in the description. So what are the struggles that cosmetic surgery practices have? Getting new patients or whatever that might be. So Amazon’s really good hack. Go in there, um, look up books in that niche, in that industry, and you’ll find a ton of pain points that way.

Anika Watkins: 14:14 So that’s a really great resource. Another thing you can do is go on social media, um, and if you have at least a couple of competitors, which you probably do for whatever industry you’re in and whatever, product or service and go to their comments and reviews. So I always like to look at the Facebook comments and Google reviews for my competitors when I’m working with a new client to see what are the negative reviews. Sometimes it’s specific about the business, but sometimes it’s specific to the product or the experience around it. And that can be really valuable too. So those are two really great ways, um, online that you can do some research, figure out what those pain points are.

Matt Johnston: 14:54 That’s great. I’ve never thought about looking at negative reviews. That’s very smart. That’s very smart.

Anika Watkins: 14:59 And it’s really revealing to see what real customers have actually said. Um, about that product or service that gives you a lot of insight.

Matt Johnston: 15:09 So how do you frame that in a way that, that, that feels organic because often like the most, the most basic way that we hear and talk about pain points is this very sort of typical, are you struggling to get x in your y? Yeah. How do you sort of bridge that gap to make a, to sort of make you seem like the hero in that situation? Should you be the hero? I mean, how does the story works?

Anika Watkins: 15:38 You definitely want to be the hero. You want your product or service to be the hero and the solution to the problem for sure. Like that’s the whole goal of direct response copy. Whatever you’re selling should, you know, the purpose of it should be to improve that person’s life in one way or another and solve their problem. So I agree with you. I think that most people, when they think of pain points, it’s just this generic idea of, oh, we’ll just throw some random questions out there. Like, are you struggling with losing weight? You know, are you tired of sitting on the couch? Things like that. And that’s so boring. Um, and you really want to write copy that’s gonna appeal to people’s emotions and make them want to take action. Um, and so I have four ways that you can frame your, um, pain points in a unique way instead of following that basic formula.

Anika Watkins: 16:28 Um, and the first one I would say is shock. Shock is a really good one and it sounds strange, but it works. So a good example of that would be, you know, let’s say, let’s say you’re trying to sell a product that helps with back pain. For example, if you lead with a number, like I have no idea if this is the real number by the way, but you could say something like, you know, did you know, 500 million people suffer with back pain? Um, or maybe like, you know, nine out of 10 people aren’t prepared for retirement. So that’s one way to go about it. You know, so shocking people with a big statistic or a big number can be really effective, right? [inaudible] and it’s just a little spin on it, but you’re kind of using that shock value, um, to tie in the pain point to grab their attention.

Anika Watkins: 17:12 Um, another one is probably my favorite, which would be like humor or sarcasm cause I appreciate that. Um, and so there’s some different ways you can play that. Um, you know, I think, uh, I saw an ad the other day for, I think it was a Facebook ad and it said like, you know, don’t you wish your clients would just pay the effing invoice, which sounds kind of vulgar but you know, it speaks to a certain audience. Um, and I think this one was for freelancers. And so if you can use humor in a certain way that speaks to your very specific audience and hits a pain point that they can relate to, can be really effective too. So kind of being sarcastic, um, using humor to hit that pain point instead of just coming at it with a basic list of questions like you mentioned in the beginning. Cause I think that can really, um, get boring and it’s so overdone and you really want to grab people’s attention with your pain points.

Matt Johnston: 18:11 Yeah. That’s great. So we have shock. We have humor, sarcasm.

Anika Watkins: 18:15 Yup. Um, another one could be like motivation. So kind of framing it in a way that, you know, the solution to their pain is just a short distance away. So that works really well. Um, with emotional problems. So it could be, you know, like a weight loss product or something that ties into anxiety or stress, something that’s emotional, that’s what motivation works really well with. Um, so that could be like, you know, lose 10 pounds in just five days without diet or exercise. Um, so we’re addressing the pain point of they want to solve this problem, but they want to do it quickly. Um, or like improve your marriage in six weeks without spending thousands on counseling. So you’re addressing the pain point in there, but you’re not posing it as a question.

Matt Johnston: 19:01 Yeah. That’s great.

Anika Watkins: 19:02 [inaudible] um, and then let’s see. Another one could kind of be using, uh, like a daunting, uh, a daunting feel. So like if there’s a pain point that seems very laborious or you know, it’s like brain torture. So it could be something legal related or finance or health related stuff. Um, anything that’s a product or service that people find typically overwhelming. I’m using a daunting technique can really work. Like even real estate for example, you know, you could say something like, selling your house is super stressful, but it doesn’t have to be, you know, get a fair cash offer and just 24 hours, no obligation, no hassle. So if you take a really daunting task or, or feeling and make it easy for the consumer, um, that’s another way to go about it too. So you can be creative with it. I highly recommend that you write all four of these on a piece of paper.

Anika Watkins: 19:57 Think about the pain points that you have for your audience and try to just fit them into each of these categories. So, you know, how could your pain point be shocking? How could it be funny? Um, how could it create motivation? Um, how could this be daunting? And then that will give you some ideas to figure out, okay, what sounds right for your product or service. So that’s what I like to do. I like to map it out and kind of um, you know, put it all together on paper and see what feels like the right fit for my product or service.

Matt Johnston: 20:27 That’s good stuff. That’s good stuff. So how you, how you frame pain points is, is very, very important. And so this is just direct response copy and again, or are we mostly talking? Obviously we’re talking in general anytime you’re doing direct response copy, but to audiences that are completely unaware of you. This is cold audience stuff.

Anika Watkins: 20:46 [inaudible] yeah, this would be for a cold audience. Um, I mean you can use some of this language for warm audience, but it’s not as necessary as since they’re already familiar with your product and probably like you and trust you. So I think when you’re reaching a cold audience, I’m with Youtube ads or any other type of that hitting those pain points. That’s what pushes people with direct response copy. It’s like, Oh, you know, let’s say I’m sitting outside and it’s a super hot day out and my air conditioning blew out. If I see an ad that speaking to, you know, HPAC repair and it has my pain points and I know they can help me quickly, I’m probably going to click on the ad. So the whole goal of addressing pain points and direct response is to get the reader to take action. So they need to be clear, they need to be concise and they need to speak to the issue that they’re having to make them take action. [inaudible]

Matt Johnston: 21:38 yeah, and this is particularly useful in, in Youtube ads because it’s, it’s, it’s a very interesting beast in the advertising, uh, ecosphere. You don’t, not, not many people understand this, but I mean it has really the best of Google and Facebook there because you have such high relevance. I mean, you literally have people that come to a youtube video for a specific reason and then you get to put your ad in front of those people and address that specific reason in that moment. It’s highly relevant in the same way that Google is relevant, except the cool thing about youtube is that you actually get to sell to them as well like you do on Facebook. So if you can mix those two things together, you have this great marriage of relevance. And so the key here is what kind of copy can you write in that moment when you know, like you have such a better sense on youtube than you do on Facebook often who that person is that’s watching your ad. So you better be super specific, right?

Anika Watkins: 22:42 Yeah, exactly. And Youtube ads are so powerful. I mean, I find myself, um, you know, clicking through on Youtube ads often because the copy and what they’re saying in the ad is so specific to me. I’m trying to think of an example. The other day I was looking up hiking in my area. My husband and I do a lot of hiking and I was watching some video about hiking in the Chattanooga area. Um, and then, uh, an ad popped up about like, I have a dog and it was so frequently, like relevant to me. It was weird, but I did click on it and it was about hiking with your dog and like a dog carrier for hiking and I didn’t have one. So I was like, Oh yeah, like I’ve gotten a little more, I have anything to carry around with. But it spoke to me right away cause you know, it’s like, yeah, I love hiking, I have a pet and this makes it easier to go hiking with my pet. And it, you know, the copy hooked me right away. Um, and so I think if you have the right copy and you address the pain points quickly in the beginning, like you said, um, youtube ads are amazing because you’re already watching something that’s relevant to the product or service. Hopefully that the ad is going to show you. And if it’s an effective ad, you’re gonna Watch it and click through to learn more because it’s so already speaking to exactly what your pain points are.

Matt Johnston: 23:58 Yeah. Yeah. Let’s talk a little bit about the, the psychology of all this. I mean, this is all great. I mean, and often you will see this in copywriting, is you get all of these great rules to follow and systems to go down and checklists to do. But I find myself fascinated by what it actually is psychologically, like what’s going on in our brains. It’s actually making people click on stuff. I mean, I’ve been fascinated with this my entire career. I’ve always said that the best, that the best, my, my best characteristic, my biggest talent is knowing what people will click on, which caused me some issues sometimes in the journalism world because a lot of my colleagues were like, I want to tell these powerful stories. And I’m like, I do too, but I also really want them to click on it. So I’m going to focus on that. You focus on this. So, but, but, um, uh, I, I’m very interested in that. I’m, I’m very interested in the reasons why people do that. I often say that empathy is the heartbeat of the Internet because I feel that the main reason why anyone clicks on anything at some level comes down to empathy, which is like the level within which they emotionally identify with something. How do you think that ties into copywriting?

Anika Watkins: 25:19 Yeah, totally ties into copywriting. It should because your copy should appeal to somebody’s emotions and their direct situation. And so that happens a few ways. Either the copy is going to speak to a fear, right? Like something they’re afraid of and they read the copy and it’s like, oh my gosh, like yeah, nine out of 10 people aren’t prepared for retirement and I’m 55 and kind of creates a sense of panic in me. So it can appeal to fear. You know, people are afraid, um, you know, that they didn’t do something right or they’re missing out, you know, fear of missing out. And so that can cause them to click. Another one is necessity. Um, you know, and that can be a whole variety of things, but feeling like, oh my gosh, I need to have this thing. Like, I didn’t know it existed five minutes ago, but now that I see it, I need it.

Anika Watkins: 26:08 I can’t believe it didn’t have this in my house already or whatever the product may be. So I think feeling necessity, um, one that I am fascinated by is this whole idea of social proof because that one blows my mind. It’s so interesting. So if somebody sees an ad, um, and it’s got, you know, tons of comments and tons of likes and tons of shares, that instantly has more of an effect to make people click through simply because when we as humans see that, we feel like, oh, well if everybody else is doing it, then, you know, it must be good. It must be interesting. I don’t want to miss out on that. And so psychologically, just for that reason, um, we, it’s like we feel like we don’t want to miss out and it must be really cool or it must be a great product.

Anika Watkins: 26:53 And that’s a really interesting reason that people click through. Um, so that one really intrigues me because I’ve seen that happen in a lot of our own ad campaigns. Um, another one is just desire, you know, people read copy, they didn’t know they needed this product and it’s not really a need, but it’s a want and they’re like, oh, like I really, really, really want to have this thing now. I didn’t know it existed. And it kind of speaks to that. Um, and then another one would just be like straight up curiosity. So kinda like that click baity stuff where it’s such a shocking or bizarre or intriguing headline, they really can’t help but click on it. Um, and so I think if you can figure out, you know, why do people really need your product? Is it fear? Is it necessity? Is it desire? Is it curiosity? Um, if you can narrow that down, you can use your copy to speak to those emotions and speak to those feelings, um, to really make your copy very effective. And so I think understanding the psychology of, you know, why do people need your product? What is it that they feel they have to have it? How is it going to benefit them? Um, so that’s Kinda how I like to look at that from that standpoint. What are your thoughts on that as far as psychology and, and clicking through in your experience?

Matt Johnston: 28:15 Yeah, I often hear it and I feel silly cause I was just trying to think of what it often is that I, there, there, there, there, there are sort of these famous survival axioms that we all have sort of somewhat argue, hard wired into us. And a lot of times copywriters will talk about those. And I can’t even say them right now off hand because I can’t think what they are, but, um, I’m sure you’ve heard them two things like, you know, shelter, food, companionship, things like that. Um, uh, and you can leverage all of those things, you know, because there’s just

Anika Watkins: 28:50 needs as a human [inaudible]

Matt Johnston: 28:52 right, right. Your basic needs as a human and a lot of those, if you can find a way to speak to those, I do think that you can often put yourself in a, put yourself in a good position. I mean, even even things like companionship and are sort of need to have companionship. Um, often we’ll talk about, you know, how do you frame, let’s say that you’re, you know, we, we run a lot of coaching funnels, we run ads for a lot of online coaches because they’re a great fit for Youtube ads. And often what it is there is, you know, we’re talking about, you know, joining, you know, you can do this alone or you can join a community. Like everyone is here waiting for you. Everyone’s waiting for you. A bunch of likeminded people are just sitting here waiting for you to, you know, they’ve got the same problem. Um, so I think that can be powerful.

Anika Watkins: 29:42 Yeah, exactly. And I think that’s a great one to bring up because, um, for coaches, you know, if you have a coaching client, you took the time to understand that their client’s community is super important to them. And so you really have to do your diligence before you write your copy to know, like we talked about earlier, you know, who is your Avatar, you know, what matters to them and what are those key pain points. Cause if you don’t have that, you cannot write effective copy. You just can’t. And so when you’re writing, um, you know your copy for your Youtube ads, you know that community is super important to those people already. So then when they click and see that it kind of kind of like pulls into heartstrings, you know what I mean? Cause they feel like, oh yeah, like Oh these are my people and that, yeah, community sounds great cause I feel really alone, um, in this journey that I’m on whatever the coach might be offering.

Anika Watkins: 30:31 And so that’s what it does. When you have that in your copy, it speaks to the heart of that person in such a direct way. It almost feels like the ad was written just for them. That’s how, that’s how effective it should be. It should be so specific. Um, so strong in it’s pain points that, you know, I’m sure you’ve had that experience where you read an ad and you’re like, oh my gosh, like did anyone else see this ad? Like it feels like they knew my whole life and they wrote it in the sand. Oh my goodness. Like yeah I need to click and sign up. Cause they just hit every one of them. Um, so I love that. I think that’s a really good example.

Matt Johnston: 31:07 I think a lot of people don’t do the research necessary. And you know, I’ve certainly been guilty of this as well in the past when you just, the doing the research on the Avatar, on the pain points, you often feel like, oh, can I just go in and write the freaking thing?

Anika Watkins: 31:26 Yeah, definitely. Um, and you know, if you’ve got multiple avatars, you need to do research on each avatar. And if you, you know, if your business isn’t for everyone, you probably have a couple avatars. I was just talking to a client today, um, who sells supplements for something very specific and one audience was like 40 to 65 with knee pain and then age 30 and then Koreans. It was very random. Um, so you need to do your research for each of those avatars because they’re probably gonna have different pain points even though you’re selling the same product to them. Um, it could be based on where they’re at in their life. You know, how much money they have, what is important to them at that point in their life. So, you know, take the time before you launch your campaigns to really research this, map it out on paper, figure out, um, you know, what those pain points are and how to best address them because it’s going to be different for every single avatar.

Matt Johnston: 32:26 Yeah, that’s great. Uh, is there like a truck backing up in your house or something? What’s going on?

Anika Watkins: 32:35 I’ve got my parents’ Lake House and there was something beeping. Sorry.

Matt Johnston: 32:40 I’m like, is there like a truck backing up out there? Like what was, what’s happening? I going to take her away. I mean, we need her for, yeah, this is great. This is great. Another, another big piece of it is, you know, we talk about empathy because, you know, and, and very often in, in youtube ads that we run, we try to add that big empathy element, you know, oh, I see your pain point and I understand your pain point. Cause I, cause I, I’ve been there. Yeah, yeah. Right, right, right. Um, so that, that feeling that you’re not alone, um, certainly brings you into the fold. But also you want to, you want to like establish some authority, um, and also be seen as a, I guess sort of usually some sort of expert, you know, especially if you’re in a, in a service based business. How can you do that without it? It’s, I, I, I often find that that’s a difficult moment to not stroke your ego and like, it’s kind of like, I see, I understand what you’re going through. I know it’s hard. Here’s the thing, I’m like, really awesome. It’s very hard. Like how do you, how do you, how do you bridge that? How do you, how do you establish your authority?

Anika Watkins: 33:54 Yeah, I mean, so that’s a great question. Um, you do want to establish your authority, but there’s a fine line because you don’t want to just rattle on about all of your accomplishments and accolades and bore people and you only want to share the stuff that’s actually relevant to the person you’re writing to. So let’s go back to the cosmetic surgeon example. Let’s say we’re selling like libo section with an ad or something. So we address the pain points, you know, that they want to lose weight, that they’re frustrated with the extra, you know, uh, fat around their stomach or whatever it is, and you can understand them and now you need to tell them, why are you the expert? So that would be stuff like, you know, you’ve done, you know, 3,500 procedures, you’ve, you know, been a doctor for 30 years, but give it to them in like bite-size information.

Anika Watkins: 34:44 Give them the most jam packed, um, value statements as possible. So that’s the way I like to look at it. So they don’t need to know, you know, what was the doctor’s degree, where did he go to college? You know, how big is the building? How many people work there? Nobody cares about that. You want to just speak to, okay, this guy clearly knows what he’s doing. He’s performed 3,500 procedures and he’s been a doctor for 30 years and he was voted number one in Nashville. So like, those are the three bullets I would use in the copy. Um, and so I think you only want to figure out like what are those top nuggets, like your top five golden nuggets. And then really look at those and cherry pick them and figure out, okay, if I was the customer, what would matter to me?

Anika Watkins: 35:27 So look at your avatars and figure out, okay, what would make them trust me, you know? So if, if it’s a coach, for example, let’s say it’s like a, I don’t know, a marriage coach or something, probably that they’re still married would be a good one. You know, that they’ve been married for 20 years or whatever it might be, or, um, they’ve helped 5,000 people, you know, so just really pulling out those facts that matter to the Avatar. Does that make sense? I’m trying to say that in like a concise way. I think that’s, you know how I would look at it. Yeah. You just

Matt Johnston: 35:59 to find a way. Yeah. I think make the tonal shifts not be a huge tonal shift. Yeah. And just sort of make sure it ties into your pain points like, and I think often it can stem off of that, right? I mean it can stem off of the identification like I identify with you because I was in your spot, but I was able to beat it by doing x and by doing x, like you’ve, you’ve established some authority there and then you’d be like, oh well I’ve helped like 700 people just like you after. I did figure that out. Um, I think there are ways to do that.

Anika Watkins: 36:34 Yeah. And you can weave it into your copy without making it all about you. You can still talk about, um, you know, the trust and authority that you have to offer, but still make it about them. Like the way you just phrased it as a perfect example. So you know, making sure you keep it as youth centric as possible about the reader, but you do have to establish the authority. Otherwise why would they trust you? You know, people won’t buy something unless they like no one trusts you. So that’s a very important thing to incorporate into your copy.

Matt Johnston: 37:04 So what are these sort of, uh, and we can sort of finish it here and this has been, this has been amazing. I think that we can go, maybe we’ll have you on again and we’ll just talk about sales pages and stuff because we’re not going to have time to get into that today cause there’s so much to talk about just with advertising copy. I know, especially the, the advertising copy that we do is very specifically templated to that sort of calling out the Avatar and the pain point, empathizing, building authority. I mean, it’s all the stuff that we talked about, so it’s super, super useful. Um, but, but just, just, I always like to make these as tangible as possible. These, these little needs, these, these, these interviews. So what are the sort of three biggest mistakes that you see pretty much everybody making out there or most folks making?

Anika Watkins: 37:52 Yeah, I mean, the number one mistake would be straight up just not doing research. You have to do your research. So take the time to do your research, implement some of those things that I mentioned earlier. You know, do some qualitative research. Ask people, you know, what would you improve? How can you make this better? Um, go on social media, look at reviews, go on Amazon, do your diligence in the beginning. So you have to do your research. The second thing I see all the time is people focusing on making it witty and funny. And that’s just not the purpose of effective advertising. You know, this is not the super bowl. We’re not trying to get as many laughs as possible. This is not general brand awareness. Brand awareness is great, but that’s very different from direct response. Um, so don’t focus on being humorous or clever.

Anika Watkins: 38:40 The goal is to make people feel like they have to have what you’re selling. So the copy needs to be effective to the point, um, and speak to their needs, right? So don’t, don’t focus on funny. Focus on what is gonna make them click what’s going to sell the product. Um, and then probably the last thing is kind of what we’ve already talked about, but just not making the copy about you and the business, but making it about you, the reader. Um, I just see that all the time where people will talk way too much about, you know, we started our business in 2011 and we have these awards and we’ve worked on this product for years and here’s why it’s so awesome where you could position it differently and say, you know, here’s, you know, the running shoe that’s going to change your life or here’s how you are going to benefit from this coaching service.

Anika Watkins: 39:26 So I think making your copy you centric as much as possible will make a huge difference. So those are probably, I’d say the top three things that you can do to improve it. So do your research. Um, focus on selling, not humor or being clever and then making it you centric. And a really, um, easy thing with that last one is go through your copy and see how many times you’re saying we, you know, like we the business or your business name and try to rewrite it to focus it on the customer instead. And it’s easier than you think it is and you’ll probably go through your copy and see, okay, there’s a lot of places I could take the emphasis off of me and focus it back on the customer.

Matt Johnston: 40:09 Those are great. Those are great. I mean, I know it’s, it’s very difficult to, to avoid that trap where you end up talking about you a lot because at the end of the day you’re so focused on, I mean that’s what you’re doing. You’re selling your product. But I think, I mean very often that does come from the lack of research. Um, and I think it’s also worth saying here just as a sort of button, I think it’s worth saying that your offer is so important because if you as a business don’t have a specific idea of who this is for, of what problem this product solves. And this happens much more often than you might think, not you. But I feel like in, in general, especially in this sort of, uh, info product space, um, if, if you don’t know what it’s for, then it becomes extremely hard. Or, or, or if it’s too broad, like far too broad, you’ll find when you’re the copywriting stage that it’s just impossible. Right?

Anika Watkins: 41:13 Yeah, exactly. And I mean, you can go too far in either direction. You could make it way too broad, which appeals to everyone way too micro niche where like five people want your product. So really got to find that sweet spot that’s like, okay, this is your core audience. These are your people, this is what they care about. These are their pain points. Um, so you have specificity when it comes to this is this is your real audience and your Avatar, not too broad, not too specific. And that takes work. I think people, you know, sometimes have misconceptions about copy. They think, oh yeah, I can just, you know, sit down on my computer, crank out a couple of things, buy this product now, check it out. You know, here’s a really cool watch. It’s like, that’s not how it works. It’s actually so much work and to write excellent copy. It takes practice. Um, and just the willingness to do research. If you can just spend the time and commit to really researching, understanding your audience, making sure your offer aligns with your audience and that your offer is really going to add value or your product, whatever it might be. Um, you’re going to develop the skills to write good copy, but you do have to take the time to do the research. That’s super, super important.

Matt Johnston: 42:27 Really, really good reminder. Thank you. You so much Anika. Thank you so much. Arnica. Yeah, tell us where we can find out more about, uh, yeah, tell us where we can find out more about what you do. Because I would guess, I would hope that everybody here wants to go and, uh, because you, you have a copywriting, you do all, you do all this stuff for other agencies, clients, businesses.

Anika Watkins: 42:53 We do. Yeah. So we’ve got, um, Moxie copywriting. The site is not yet live, but it should be up in a couple of weeks. But in the meantime, people can go to Moxie media, m g m, like management abbreviated or they can follow, um, Moxie copywriting on Instagram. Um, but yes, we offer direct response copywriting, everything from Facebook ad copy, email sequences, landing page, copy, you name it. Um, it’s a really cool process. You basically just tell us what you need and then we send you a briefing form and we’ll turn the copy around in three to five days. Um, so it’s really cool. We love doing it. We’ll do all the research, um, for you. You provide us with the information we need and we’ll crank out the copy you need to make your campaign successful.

Matt Johnston: 43:38 That’s awesome. I’ll, I’ll have to talk you through a little bit more the template that we use and maybe you can start adding that to your service. Yeah, for sure. Thank you so much. I, I know that people got a ton out of this. There’s just so much here and uh, we’ve really just scratched the surface. Um, but certainly anybody looking to write better direct response copy, which is pretty much every marketer out there, I think would have gotten a lot about a lot, a lot out of this. Thank you so much, Anika. Thank you so much everybody for being here and we will see you next time.

Speaker 6: 44:34 [inaudible].

Matt Johnston: (20:11)
Yeah. I’ve, I’ve, I’ve wondered about that, about, you know, how much warming up you would actually do because sometimes, and we often worry about this with youtube, we think about this a lot with youtube. Um, people go to youtube because they want to know, want to do, want to buy something, want to learn something. And so often when they’re going to your product page, um, it’s always tough to say what kind of mood they’re in to shop. Um, obviously Youtube ads works very well for e-commerce, but, um, sometimes we will choose to do a, like a lead Gen approach to more higher ticket products, um, where we’re doing some sort of contest or something like that because, you know, is it too aggressive to take somebody right to a product page at the same time? It is a better audience than you you’d see through social media in a way, like a more intent-based audience.

Matt Johnston: (21:05)
And so I feel like with the right messaging on the landing page slash product page, um, you might be able to, to have a really high success rate. So, um, I, I’ve, I’ve, I’ve often wondered, um, you know, and also you get more opportunity to warm people up in a youtube ad than you do with a simple image on Facebook or Instagram, uh, cause you’re actually providing value in the, in the ad. So I wonder with a, I wonder with that, you know, if you’re selling a $400, $500 thousand dollars product, um, is there some version that might work a little bit better to send somebody directly to a product page? And of course at the end of the day you want to split test it, but maybe the sales letter approach would make sense.

Marco Hernandez: (21:57)
Yeah. The, the higher you go up and, and, and price point for a product, the more you need to talk to them about it. Um, it doesn’t have to be like one of those old 15 minutes scroll sales letter. You could actually wrap it up in another video. So they click on, on your youtube video, they go to a landing page where they actually see a more specific video about the technology and maybe a short version of the video. In a transcription below it. And then the offer, um, that, that type of format we worked for, for a hire, I intend to product a, something that we’ve been testing and it’s going to be very, very cool is uh, especially for higher ticket prices is the adoption in the websites of uh, augmented reality technology. Um, I believe I sent you a demo of something of this nature.

Marco Hernandez: (22:55)
And so you basically, basically you have the, the rendering of the product and you’re able to pop the camera straight on the landing page. You pop the camera of your cell phone and it brings that object into your camera stream if you want. I don’t know if it’s right, the camera feed. So then you can see live how the product would look like. So if it’s a, let’s say a three foot by five foot product or um, a couple of inches tall, you can actually position it in your live, on your, on, on your desk or in your garden, wherever the product fits. So I think those types of pools, uh, eventually will start coming up more in, into pages to make the user more familiar with it and see how it really looks alive. So the more information you give to them, I think it’s, as long as it’s well-pleased and it’s not overloading the user with unnecessary information, I think it’s always beneficial.

Matt Johnston: (23:55) That’s amazing. Yeah. I mean we are not too far from the days where we’re going to be able to leverage that inside of Youtube ads somehow, whether it’s some sort of virtual reality device that we all have on us at all times and we know that we have it. Um, or pretend well, I, cause I was just thinking mope computer, but I suppose on mobile, um, we’re probably not too far away from us being able to show augmented reality pieces in our ads. I would not be surprised at all or three 60 video, um, easily inside of our ads. Uh, and then you can really get p because that’s generally, especially as you go up up the price ladder, uh, people want a picture of themselves with it.

Matt Johnston: (24:40)
They, and they want to know what it’s like, what it feels in their hands. Um, and that, that, that’s always been the biggest detriment. Does online shopping. We all do it. We love it. We’re never going to go brick and mortar again consistently. However, at the end of the day we would like to see something before like gun to our head, right? Like we would like to see something before we buy it. It would be nice. It’s never possible anymore. Rarely possible, but it will be great. Instead we would go on like sort of money back guarantees and things like that. Uh, but this, this may actually replace that experience for us and we may be able to do that on the ad buying side and the, um, and the, and the Cro side for sure. I have you, uh, have you, um, tested any of that yet?

Marco Hernandez: (25:26)
So we’re in the process of deploying a couple of shops that will have that capability. Um, so for instance, we’re, we’re having conversations with this, uh, company in Australia that does greenhouses. So imagine just being capable of saying, okay, how is this green is going to look in my backyard? Can it fit? How would it like just having that visual aspect on it and it makes it like a little bit of like a showroom where you’re able to say, you know what they have, I like this one, this model will look great or this one doesn’t fit even though I like it. Um, so you don’t have to actually go there to the back of earth and measure it. You can just put it there. So as a consumer, as a shopper, well that’s, that’s cool. Things that you want to start seeing on, on ecommerce stores. It’s not technically something that you can benchmark, but it’s definitely gonna be something that you can, um, allow users to have a better experience and better experience always translate and happy clients. Right.

Matt Johnston: (26:27)
I actually think that it’s, so, it’s such a big feature that when it’s cracked in a way that is accessible to everyone and easy to execute, whoever’s first to crushing that is gonna win. I mean, because I do think it’s that important. I mean for, for even $50 products, people are doing extensive research on them to see if they should make even a $50 investment.

Marco Hernandez: (26:49)
There are, especially in the clothing industry, these types of technology school will skyrocket their sales. Um, the biggest hold back I have buying online are for sunglasses. That’s my, like I always have to go to the store. Even though I buy it online, I have to go to the store to try it out because it doesn’t, I don’t, I can’t see from a photograph whether that fits my face, that and shoes. Right. And just taking the example of a company like Sapos were they built an online empire on shoes by changing the model where, hey, try it. If it doesn’t fit, send it back and send it back as many times you want until it fits. If they can create in an experience on their online store where a, maybe the, the, the AI or the augmented reality is able to actually measure the size of your foot because now there’s technologies that allow you to do that with what suits you. Upload your photo and tell you how much your dimensions, so the same thing can be applied to for your feet. You can measure and say, hey, this is the right size for you. And then you see it in augmented reality on your feet. Yup. I like these boom purchase. So it’s going to evolve. And those who adopt these type of technologies will definitely have a competitive advantage over the rest.

Matt Johnston: (28:13)
Yeah, that’s amazing. One more brief aside and then we can leave that and go to a slight, a few, a few more basic things. But a, I bought a, a, I bought a car the first time. I bought a car in a while. It used car a year ago and I bought it from Carvana. I bought this car online and uh, you know, Caravan van is the company that has these, um, car vending machines in a couple of areas in the country, you know. Um, but I, I bought the car online and they’re augmented reality. Well, I, you know, I wouldn’t call it augmented reality, but like, whatever it is you would call, it was amazing. I felt fine purchasing the car based on it. And basically what it allowed me to do was not just get a three 60 view of the actual car that I was going to buy, but I could go inside of it, look all around, I could look, I could find blemishes, I could see the back seat, the front seat, the trunk, whatever I wanted.

Matt Johnston: (29:10)
Like I’m, there’s not much more that I could see in person except for actually test driving. And I’m not a car guy. I don’t really care. I mean, like they all, they all drive the same to me. So, you know, I, I, it was an easy purchase for me, but you know, if it hadn’t had that, um, that feature on the site, I wouldn’t have bought it. Now, of course, with something like Carvana with their model of like selling these cars online and that’s their thing. I mean, they kind of had to crack that very early because how else are you going to get someone to make that purchase? But, um, uh, I, I just thought that that was very cool and we’re not very far. I don’t think at all from any brand being able to do this. I think that it’s just, you have to think outside the box.

Matt Johnston: (29:52)
Any brand could do it right now if they wanted. It sounds like to me. So, um, it was just sort of a missed opportunity. So going back to the basics, so we talked about, we talked a little bit about, um, what about headlines and copy. Um, you, you mentioned a little bit about having short and to the point copy, etc. But how much selling are we doing there? I mean, I feel like a lot of, a lot of product pages I see are just largely typical, right? It’s sort of like, this is the product. It does this like basically like Amazon. Like a lot of the, a lot of e-commerce PR, uh, uh, stores are sort of basically copying Amazon. They’re just kinda like, and they’re going off the theme. Like these are like three benefits. This is what it is. These are the colors available.

Matt Johnston: (30:43)
What’s your quantity and add to cart. Uh, but at the same time, you don’t want to make it too much. You don’t want to overthink it. So what’s the sort of, um, I dunno, what do you think, what’s the, what’s the recommended headline and copy stuff there? And do you use a headline that’s not just the products that you just say, you know, like, you know, like revolution, like, like, like a, I dunno, whatever eye cream or do you actually add a headline? Like this eye cream will transform your mornings? I mean, how, like what do you think?

Marco Hernandez: (31:16)
Right. Well I think it goes back to whether you’re working on type of sales letter approach or just a standard shopping. Um, keep in mind [inaudible] a lot of the, the sales letter go from driven traffic. So if you’re taking that approach and you’re driving traffic to that, usually that is gonna work better than just the, the product title. Now it’s very rare that you find an online store that has the type of naming convention because they, they, even though we know that that would probably work better, they want to have a standardized product naming convention. So they’re not going to say, I’m amazing. I renewal cream. They’re going to say just renewal cream cause that’s the name of the product. So a lot of companies tend to keep that conventional approach. Um, but if you’re going towards the more sales letter approach, I would definitely encourage you to take the other um, approach.

Marco Hernandez: (32:14)
Now from a description standpoint, I think it’s always going to be benefit oriented and not feature oriented. People don’t buy because the, what they’re reading makes sense, but they, they buy because they’re connecting with the product. Um, they, you must always address who is this ideal for? What am I gonna feel, see taste when I try your product and what benefits am I going to get from it? If you write the copy around those aspects, it’s going to be more engaging with your audience. That just saying, oh, this measures two inches by five by 10 it wastes this much. We don’t care about those things we care about. Is it going to solve my problem or not? So a lot of the times we forget about addressing the problems. So why would I buy, um, your cell phone? Well, this is the newest technology that, uh, has the, the latest cameras that you can take the best photographs with your kids.

Marco Hernandez: (33:10)
So that type of copy would definitely engage with somebody that has parents, right? So you have know your audience and how you write your copy. Um, be concise about it. Don’t be fluffy. Fluff makes you [inaudible] distract and I’ll take action. So you have to be very direct on the benefits. Who is it for and, and how you should attack it. Now, copy needs to be written different modalities. I mean, if you want to really deep dive into understanding products you have to product sales, you have to understand, well, how do people engage with you while they engage on the visual aspects on it? Auditory, um, in a, in a kinesthetic way. Those are nearing the mystic programming. Banalities so your copy always needs to refer to them. I don’t know if Matt is a more auditory person or visual. So you have to be able to describe your product in multiple angles where when you sit here, you’re going to feel this, but it’s going to look amazing in your living room and when like the sofa is going to be the center of your party. So you’re, you’re creating multiple elements there so that they can visualize it in multiple sensorial aspects. Does that make sense?

Matt Johnston: (34:26)
Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, it does. It does make a lot of sense. Um, I, you know, I just think it’s always, it’s always you just never know what to write in, how much to write. I mean, you always just want to focus on the, the, the pluses and minuses, the costs and the benefits. Um, but at the end of the day, like you’re like, ah, I don’t know, maybe I gotta warm up a little more. Maybe I got to push on some pain points. And at the end of the day it’s specific to the product, specifically the audience. So that makes a whole lot of sense.

Marco Hernandez: (34:57)
And I think it’s, just to touch on what I think, because we, we, we always have frustrated clients that say, well, we’re always testing what’s up with that? Well, because you’re always testing, your company’s always going to be testing things. That’s a whole attention. You never have a silver bullet. And sales are seasonal. Your audiences change your product, the walls. So you’re always in this consistent testing. So whether there’s not going to be an ideal copy, it might work for six months and then it doesn’t work. But the thing is you got to always test what, how can I improve it? And you’re gonna end up in have or take two steps forward and then you might take one step back, like to tip forward one step back, et Cetera, et cetera. So it’s always that process of seeing if I can make it better or is it going to worse.

Matt Johnston: (35:47)
Cool. All right, so, so, so let’s recap here and make sure just before we wrap up to make sure we have, we give people like really actionable stuff to take a look at for all their ecommerce product pages. They’re taking a look at. So one, we want to make sure the photography is on point basically, right? Um, meaning that it isn’t distracting. Um, it looks elegant but you don’t need to overproduce it to make sure the button really stands out. But, um, you want to look at different colors for different sectors, um, and uh, try to balance those things. But at the end of the day it needs to stick out like a sore thumb, right? Um, and the copy should be shortened to the point direct and not get too flowery. It should mostly speaks to pluses and minuses and direct benefits and problems that it’s solving. And uh, basically the more expensive the product, the longer your product page is likely going to be because you might have multiple videos, a little bit more copy, et Cetera. Um, but I think you would, but I think you would say that you still on an ecommerce product base for a more expensive product, you want to really focus in on, on like very a very direct conversation of the problems it’s solving and the benefits. Right?

Marco Hernandez: (37:08)
Except if you’re Ferrari, then you say, buy now you don’t need to,

Matt Johnston: (37:14)
you know us, stop reading. Right, right.

Marco Hernandez: (37:17)
Just click buy.

Matt Johnston: (37:20)
Yeah. That’s great. Marco. I think that there’s a lot that people can take, can take away this. I know, I know that I’m going to be revisiting a lot of, I’m actually, I’m trying to, I’m like thinking right now, I need to go over to my client’s product pages right now and just see if I can just get my hands in there and fix this stuff. But I also think that one of the big, uh, the big takeaways here is like to test everything and it’s not hard to do that and it’s worth it. Um, it’s easier than ever to set up Ab tests, uh, through all of these platforms. So test stuff, you know, test stuff as, as much as possible. Um, uh, so yeah, I thank you so much. This was, this was great. This was great. I mean, I mean, at the end of the day, this is what matters are conversions, right? You’re not just traffic. We’re not just driving traffic. It’s traffic. Doesn’t matter. I can get anyone to click on stuff. It’s not about that. It’s more about, you know, who, who are you driving and are they going to convert once they get there? And I think you’ve really given us a good, a good tool box. Thanks Marco.

Marco Hernandez: (38:29)
Yeah, absolutely. If I want to leave you one last, know your numbers correctly. Um, a lot of the reporting tools actually give you total traffic. Um, what I consider in mind metrics is, um, page visits. What happens is if, especially if you’re a large brand that you have a lot of organic traffic, um, you’re gonna get visitors all the time and you’re going to be able to, I personally believe that we’re going to, traffic shouldn’t convert the same rate than paid traffic. One is on the other is more curious. So one of your driving traffic straight to the product page. So always make sure that when you’re benchmarking and seeing your conversion rate for your page, if it’s 3%, and it’s actually a page views or product page views versus a, um, instead of just website total website views, because that’s going to make a big difference on comments. People are what seeing a specific product and clicking through that product because not all products convert at the same rate at year.

Matt Johnston: (39:32)
Yeah. That’s very interesting. That’s very interesting. Yeah, for sure. All right, everybody will, thanks so much for, uh, for joining me for this, uh, Cro sesh. Marco, appreciate you being here. Uh, we’ll be here again next week, every Friday. Like always. That’s what we do now. Thanks again for being here and, uh, have an amazing rest of your day where and whenever you are

Marco Hernandez: (40:05)

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